Context: Building web3 fan communities with Straith Schreder, Palm NFT Studio

[00:00] Welcome to Season 1, Episode 7 of Context, Views on Crypto and Culture, presented by Boys Club. [00:06] With me, your host, Blake Vanucan. [00:08] Today we have on the brilliant Stray Shredder, the Executive Creative Director of Palm NFT Studio. She deals with some of the biggest fan and collector communities out there, including Damien Hirst and the DC Universe. And I have never heard someone talk so eloquently and thoughtfully about how to build, manage, and onboard fan communities in a specifically Web3 way. [00:30] She has such a deep understanding about how to leverage and experiment with NFT technology to provide customized and meaningful experiences to people when engaging with their favorite artist, comic book, or any project that they care about. [00:42] And we talk about ideas I've never really heard anyone else talk about before, including how to use generative algorithms and apply them to branded NFT content, and the important nuances between shaping a story versus authoring a story when giving fans the chance to participate in the projects they own. [00:59] This conversation frames how to effectively release and steward any big brand in their entry into Web3. So without further ado, let's get into the episode. [01:16] I have the pleasure of having on today Straith Schrader, Executive Creative Director of Palm NFT Studio, where she's responsible for developing and producing NFT experiences in collaboration with artists, institutions, and IP. She's worked with some of the most prominent names in the world. She's also a fantastic writer. All her blog posts on the Palm website are super thought-provoking. We will be pulling out some quotes today to talk through, that is for sure. And Straith has

[01:46] She was the VP of Creative Initiatives at BitTorrent and has worked with brands including Mozilla, Amazon Studios, and Nike. Her resume is super impressive, so I can't wait to chat with her today. So, Straith, thank you so much for being here. [02:02] Oh, so glad to be here. Thank you so much for that intro. Awesome. So Palm NFT Studio has launched super big projects with major brands and IP, including The Currency with Damien Hirst, Pace's Gallery's metaverse platform called Pace Verso. They've worked with household names like Universal Music Group, Warner Brothers, and DC. So I would love for you to start by telling us about what makes Palm unique and differentiates it from other blockchains. [02:32] Yeah, for sure. I'd love to. So as a studio, as a technology platform, our focus and sort of what centers us is this idea of building deep and vertical fan communities on chain. And like you mentioned, we do that with some of the world's leading creators, but looking at sort of a multifaceted offering in terms of onboarding new brands, new artists, but most critically their fandoms into this space. [03:02] 2D design, 3D design, platform strategy, generative art, and story world creation. So our team to date has built some of the largest and most engaged communities in Web3. And we've done that on the Palm Network, which is a sustainable EVM compatible side chain. For me, kind of the through line is looking at what we can do to sustain and nurture a truly resilient creative culture.

[03:32] technology that we work with, right? We work with [03:35] Palm Network specifically because of its ability to scale, because of its ability to provide a sustainable sustainable, [03:44] a sustainable framework for distribution. I can't [03:48] underscore enough [03:50] the criticalness of sustainability to our core mission as a studio. We have an obligation, we have a responsibility to uphold and to nurture the creative communities that we work in. We have an obligation to support our environment. So, [04:04] That's something that Palm Network offers us, that in fact, even post-merge became even more meaningful to us now that ETH is sustainable. So what Palm offers us is scalability as well. Over the course of the past two years, what we've done is a lot of [04:21] large-scale free mints. One of the early projects that we did with DC was using NFTs as ticketing for their fandom event. So a large virtual event that's free powered by hundreds of thousands of NFTs. So being able to mint for free, being able to mint at scale without compromising cost and speed has been really important to us. But I think, again, the differentiating factor for us [04:51] these new communities and get them to create with us in this space. Love that. And Palm in general in the NFT studio has talked about how you're really looking to optimize for creators. And I guess in relation to you talking about vertical fan communities, I'm wondering if you can talk through the relationship between the actual creators themselves and the communities in which

[05:21] up. [05:22] Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that like, [05:25] We work with a lot of IP, not all large IP audiences are monolithic either, right? Each one of them, each project that we do is designed to bring in and to address the needs of a different community. In the case of working with an artist like Damien Hirst, of course, there's like broad name recognition of the artist, but there's also natural interest in the artist among a new audience, certainly among the crypto audience. [05:55] accessible um you know the project that we did the currency project introduced new collectors into his fan base this for many was the first time that owning a hearse was anything close to accessible so we're we're sort of deepening the engagement with existing collectors while welcoming new ones into the fold and that's equally true of dc to projects like dc to participate in the nft [06:25] book collectors. There's maybe no more ingrained behavior than art collecting or comic collecting. At the same time, over 60% of these fans already came to us with crypto in their wallet. So they're [06:38] with the technology, with Web3, with buying and selling crypto. So I think when I think about vertical fandom, it's about maybe... [06:47] Maybe introducing new fans into the mix, but more profoundly deepening the relationship with the fans that these artists and these creators already have. Yeah. And when you say that fandoms are not all monolithic, and I think actually times in marketing and branding speak, fandoms are seen as one thing.

[07:07] And with the way that you describe this verticality, there can then be further nuance with then introducing Web3 only real initiatives that can happen because there's that personalization that can happen that way. That just makes so much sense to me. I think that the best thing to do, I'd love to kind of talk specifically through a couple of the major collaborations to dig more into some of these ideas. [07:37] before we started recording, the first specific project that I wanted to talk about is Palm's collaboration with Damien Hirst. This had to be the first major topic for a number of reasons. I did want to do a bit of an overview of him because I want to underscore to the audience, and perhaps just to myself, how important Damien Hirst is to the art world to get across the significance of this collaboration. He is one of the most important living artists today. [08:07] the Young British Artists, which came about in the late 1980s. Their first major show called Freeze was in 1988. He was the lead organizer for it. And they really came to prominence, the YBAs, in the 1990s. Some of the other names that might ring a bell for people listening would be Tracey Emin, Chris O'Feely, incredible artists in their own right. And they were really noted for their shock tactics, use of unique and throwaway materials. They were pretty wild. They loved to

[08:37] And famously, their number one patron and certainly Damien's initial champion and collector and funder was Charles Saatchi of Saatchi & Saatchi, one of the most famous and successful advertising agencies in the world. And what the YBAs did at this time was fully revitalize the British art scene and British commercial galleries. They deeply understood commerciality and promotion, the power of personal brand. They took advantage of and understood how to leverage media and marketing. [09:07] this shift really in people's appetites around consumption of media and celebrity. They were poppy. They were big. They were shocking. They knew how to grab people's attention. And no one did it better and continues to do it better, in my opinion, than Damien Hirst. He's a brilliant meme maker, I think, able to take the pulse of and capture consumer culture, the art world, luxury, desire, death, and distill these really big ideas into images and installations that represent [09:37] in its highs, in its lows, in its light, in its darkness. Some of his most famous works are For the Love of God, his 2007 piece, which is a platinum cast of an 18th century human skull encrusted with 8,600 diamonds. Also, I had to bring up the very easily remembered name, The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living. It's an artwork created in 1991, which is a tiger shark, a real tiger shark,

[10:07] display case originally commissioned in 1991 by Saatchi. He sold several works for tens of millions of dollars. He's considered to be Britain's most successful living artist. And in terms of bias, you are getting it here. Clearly, you can tell by that intro, I love Damien Hirst. I feel like I owe a lot of my career to him in terms of how he's inspired me in my academic research to understand art and culture and crypto and NFTs and fuse those with [10:37] means a lot to me, which is why I needed to speak about him. So when I heard that, [10:44] that Damien Hirst was doing an NFT collection in July 2021. I lost my mind. This was a dream come true. And full disclosure, I own Damien Hirst pieces and NFTs, and my fund owns Hirst NFTs as well. So he released a 10,000 edition drop in collaboration with Palm of hand-drawn artworks complete with a correlated NFT, which is what you got as a buyer initially. You could buy them for [11:14] unbelievable in terms of the accessibility of a price point. And each physical piece resembled really a bank note and is named after an original song lyric. There's a watermark. There's her signature. And owners of the NFT were given about a year of time during which they had to decide on whether or not to keep the NFT and burn the physical version or not. [11:33] or vice versa. So this is a brilliant play on what is currency, what is art, what is audience participation in art making. So with that strength, I would love to know the story of how this collaboration came about. It is so iconic and so important in the history of NFTs.

[11:51] Yeah, I mean, I think just by way of beginning, like, [11:57] This is an artist that means so much to history. It means so much to you. It means so much to me. And I think that... [12:06] one of the blessings and truly one of the challenges of working with major artists or large IP is that you have to contend with established fandoms and collector communities. But more critically, you're being entrusted with stewarding a legacy in the case of Damien Hirst being able to steward and to shepherd into a new space, a history of subverting and provoking the art world. And... [12:33] That is something that is so precious and so sacred. You want to be able to honor those codes and the community that exists in a way that is [12:41] meaningful and truly participatory. And so I think that that's a core component of what this work is. But even more critically, like, I guess, just by way of beginning, when we thought about [12:54] sort of [12:55] what form our network should take, what form our studio should take. A lot of that thinking was guided by what does it mean to build a medium for artists? What does it mean to create space for ideas that will shape this emerging on-chain ecosystem? And Joe Haig, who founded Henny and who represents Damien Hirst, is also part of our founding team. So one of the first projects... Yeah. Cool, okay. And so by almost...

[13:24] by almost necessity, philosophically, by virtue of sort of the team that came together behind this project, [13:30] We wanted to begin with something that forces you to confront your value system and the idea of digital ownership in a really visceral way. [13:40] And that's where we started as a studio. And that's kind of the very beginning of the Currency project. Obviously, as an artistic exploration, this is something that Hearst had been working on for some time. [13:54] maybe over the course of his career, as you said, [13:58] So much of his work is tied up in this [14:02] exploration of value systems and this idea that [14:09] art and currency and money have always been intertwined. And there's a long history of money subverting art. [14:17] But ingrained in this project is the idea of, [14:21] of almost its inverse. How can art subvert money? Which I think is so powerful. So there's kind of something to me that's really special about this artwork in its performative form. You have to decide what you value. And it feels like sometimes we forget that that's something that we have [14:46] power over. I was going to say agency of choice. Totally. Yeah. I mean, we always have a choice about what we can value and where we decide to ascribe value. And to me, sort of looking at this project unfold, like...

[15:02] You don't just collect it, you participate in it. You have to make a choice. Does a digital object mean something more to you than holding and keeping and collecting the painting? It's kind of a stunning takeaway over the course of the past year to see about 50% decide to keep the digital edition and to continue to play with this project. I think... [15:25] to me that points to [15:28] a signal that, you know, we're at a tipping point or over the tipping point when it comes to understanding what digital ownership is. But more importantly, understanding... [15:39] what this type of NFT experience can provide you as a collector in a way that is deeper and more meaningful and maybe more intrinsic than seeing something displayed on a wall. You again, you shape it, your actions shape the contours of the project and the world that's created with the artist. [15:59] Yeah, and maybe for people who don't know, the collaboration, of course, was between you, Palm NFT Studio, Damien Hirst, but also Henny. And you mentioned that one of the founders of Henny is also a founding member of Palm. So if you could just explain Henny's place in the whole collaboration. [16:20] Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that is part of this collaboration and sort of exists beyond it, too, is that Palm, NFT Studio and ConsenSys worked really closely with Henny to build their NFT platform and to build their marketplace. But Henny obviously has...

[16:40] massive art historical significance in terms of the artists that they represent and in terms of the publishing and sort of knowledge that they create for the category. [16:52] Totally. And talking about fandoms, normally I think we talk about that in relation to media IP. And Hearst is his own kind of brand and IP that kind of expands all medias. [17:22] collectors. Not that he's ever been that concerned about that, which is one of the reasons we love him, but also working with him to really keep the artistic integrity of the project. Cause clearly this is working in a new medium for him. So how were you able to kind of toe the line between making sure he was happy, pushing the limits, but also I guess that I would imagine there would have been an education process where he would have had to actually learn a lot about the technology before kind of making certain decisions. [17:52] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for... [17:56] There's a component of retaining existing fandoms in this case, like existing collectors that I think is really tied in many ways to... [18:07] to a story world, right? Like it's about narrative coherence. This project is in keeping with his own legacy. It doesn't diverge from that. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way, like it is consistent with, with what we expect from this artist to

[18:23] embark on a project in a new medium for him in a way that is inherently challenging and provocative, feels correct and feels true of the types of works that [18:32] stand out in terms of his own oeuvre. So I think that that's kind of a big point [18:40] piece of it, the shortest distance between an idea and a community is a story. And this is one that we can sort of share together. I think that [18:50] There's that piece, then there's the piece that is, as we've talked about, [18:55] participatory. So again, not thinking about [18:59] being able to interact with the artist and with the artwork differently than you might if you come across it in a museum or within your own collection. Again, to have sort of... [19:12] by virtue of making a choice in the project, the ability to control its... [19:16] outcome, I think is another way of speaking to collectors in a different way by offering them, again, a different way of relating with the artists that they love, with the artist whose work moves them. So I think that, [19:31] in some ways that was kind of the overall approach for [19:36] Speaking to [19:38] existing collectors and speaking to sort of the, the, um, [19:43] the community that's behind his work. And certainly I think there's a piece of it that for both the artist and also for [19:51] that collector community is about education and it is about experience design and showing sort of the

[19:59] even the art historical context of the work and the rarity and the traits and everything that goes into the project in a really legible way in terms of the experience design was really important. Making buying and interacting with it really simple for people who may be using MetaMask for the first time, allowing for credit cards, making the sort of purchase flow as simple as it would be in Web2 platforms is kind of one piece of onboarding, but for sure, [20:27] on almost every level, there is an element of education. [20:32] that is kind of ingrained into this project. In fact, like it's, [20:36] education is the project in so many ways, like being able to... The art in and of itself, so to speak. Yeah, exactly. I think, again, like being... [20:45] being able to understand [20:49] and provoke a question about digital... [20:52] ownership and digital value. [20:55] That's the question that we're all trying to answer, and that's the question at the heart of this work. [21:00] And I mean, it's really the way that you were able to execute on such a large scale, because I think asking conceptual kind of wide ranging questions can be very difficult to communicate cohesively, which is what you managed to do. I wonder in you talking about. [21:19] this, as you were saying, cohesive storytelling, how does that work differently? Um, [21:26] for, say, Web2 brands, I know you've worked with a lot of them in the past, versus how to specifically storytell and communicate relatively complex ideas internally.

[21:37] in a Web3 native way. [21:40] Yeah, I mean, I think that [21:44] For me, the critical difference is really around participation. I think so much of what [21:53] In my experience working in... [21:57] publishing, it's about sort of black media. It's about video or text artifacts that I hope are super engaging, but it's, I mean, it's didactic inherently. And so I think that [22:11] when I think about what is a great documentary film versus what is a great film, [22:18] NFT experience, the design is fundamentally different because I want people to interact with them in a different way. And I want people who interact with the NFT experience to have an active and participatory role in it. It's fundamentally a different design, even if at the end of the day, by exposing the [22:34] either the film [22:36] or the NFT experience, I want to have the same takeaway. So, [22:40] It's. [22:42] it moves us, I think, when thinking about either what we built for Hearst or what we're building for DC, what we built for DC. Like, [22:50] thinking about [22:52] media as like multiplayer is very much kind of like at the core versus thinking about media in a cause and effect or impressions based way. [23:04] Yeah, I think that's a brilliant way to put it, that the real kind of, or one of the main differences around Web3 storytelling is...

[23:14] the ability to interact as I guess the fan or the collector or the owner that there's, there's a real conversation that you're facilitating. Um, and with that, I mean, um, I do, I want to get into the DC stuff too. I know, um, for, for, for Hearst, the interaction is really this making this choice. Are you burning? Are you not? Um, for, for DC, there's a lot of voting on different [23:44] How do you choose and how do you design interactive experiences depending on the brand? I imagine, obviously, not all of the storytelling experiences are going to be the same. How do you choose how to manage and create these really dynamic interactive experiences with different fandoms? How are you taking in their different needs and what they value? [24:08] Yeah, I mean, in some ways, the fandoms will dictate what they want, right? Like, I think sometimes it is a test and learn. I think about one of the early projects that we did with DC, which, again, was for fandom. So virtual event, where in your NFT was the ticket embedded on each NFT, like on each video was a code. [24:38] unlock. We didn't say anything about it, but what emerged was [24:42] people found it, they started breaking codes. And so we learned that there was a behavior and appetite to play like in world with us. And so how do we, how do we,

[24:52] how do we double down on that? Like, how do we create more, more of those types of challenges and, and, and more of those types of stories? I think that, [25:00] when we're working with, again, like DC has 80 years of Canon, that is an amazing, it's amazing legacy to uphold. And it's an amazing legacy to be able to, [25:12] extend and people who are fans of the universe [25:16] they want to create their own place in that. So looking at the levers that, the multiple levers that we can pull for, [25:23] even different subsets of fans to be able to, again, [25:27] create space for them in canon to create space for them in this world and for some fans the idea of being able to [25:35] see themselves behind the mask to be able to collect, uh, [25:40] collect an NFT that represents Batman and that comes with an AR lens that allows them to step behind this kind of iconic visage is really important. So there's kind of like an ownership [25:51] feature or utility for some fans being able to write and contribute to and shape the next chapter of Batman is going to be really important. So one of the more beloved utilities and features that we have is comic book voting. And that's really cool. Like to be able to develop with fans, like one of the largest writer rooms, like in web three or straight up period is beautiful. And then for other fans, like there's this again, code breaking behavior, this gameplay behavior. So [26:21] introduce mechanics that let people

[26:23] solve mysteries across Gotham City with ARGs or train with Batman. So that type of like challenge, reward behavior are all things that, [26:35] We are exploring and testing and mostly listening to and learning from the community on, on, [26:44] what types of participatory elements have traction. [26:48] Yeah, and specifically with DC, just to give the listener context, Palm has built a Web3 platform for DC. And through, as Straith mentioned, through ownership of select NFTs, you're giving holders the chance, as you so eloquently have put it in your writing, but also here to shape the canon, which I love. It's such a brilliant way of putting it. You can participate in weekly votes, particularly with the new Batman comic series. [27:18] cover art typography, all of it. I wonder, you know, [27:23] Does building a good fan experience, as you're saying, you know, not all fandoms are monolithic, that you want to be able to give users choice so you're not just funneling them into one behavior. You want to give them lots of options. Again, that deep vertical to kind of go where they feel comfortable. [27:43] Yeah, I mean, I think that is such a good articulation of it. I think options are really powerful. I think that's also a critical difference of being able to [27:53] create experiences in this space versus in web two, where the option is watch or like here, the option is

[28:02] vote or play or create or, you know, [28:09] unlock a screening, unlock an event. There's [28:13] There's so many doors that can open. There are so many portals. And I think being able to build those with fans and to sort of think about the experience really expansively is incredibly valuable. [28:26] Yeah. And I wonder too, do you think the real difference and that enhanced functionality has to do with inherently with NFT technology and the fact that you can really track ownership and token gate different experiences? Is that the real heart of the difference? [28:44] I think it's essential to the difference too. I mean, I think... [28:49] Somebody more articulate than me has talked about the idea of like collecting something being more like impactful than liking something like by owning something implicitly like you have a stake in it and that. [29:01] regardless of the features that are associated with ownership. [29:06] psychologically that's different um and and so i can't like i can't underscore the importance of that enough but then i i think i think [29:16] with that being able to give people like [29:19] autonomy and choice and [29:22] new modes of engaging with a project via token gating or via, you know, tooling like governance, like that, [29:30] that is something that we can't do in Web2 that I think maybe, I mean, maybe there are workarounds, but this is inherent to the way that projects are constructed in this space.

[29:40] Totally. No, it makes so much sense. And I was on last week's episode, I was talking to G Money and he was saying that, you know, no one tells a little kid to collect seashells. They just do it, you know, or rocks or whatever it is. It's just like inherent in how we want to like gather and own and that represents kind of this comfort in a different way than very... [30:02] few other things really do. And I guess to go into the fandom a bit more, I mean, you are certainly dealing with like, you've been like sacred IP. I mean, clearly Damien Hirst, deeply sacred to me, Batman, sacred to millions, as is Hirst, giving fans the chance to create canon. I wonder how you manage, I wonder how to put this. I don't know how good I would be at like [30:32] um, or, or coming up with storylines in Batman, no matter how big of a fan that I am. So how do you kind of manage the skill sets of the, um, as of the average or the kind of like the, the, the typical fan, um, giving them that, that empowerment, but also, I guess, um, making sure that the direction and the, the essence of the, the brand and the, the, the real writers that, [31:02] really at the forefront. [31:04] Yeah, I mean, the artists, the writers, the history of these projects and in the future, like, [31:10] is at the forefront. And to your point, like that's, that's the most sacred thing of all. I think again, in this space, it's about,

[31:18] increasing the touch points or the participation points that we might have with that, which is really cool. And initiatives like comic book voting, wherein you can [31:27] decide a plot point and the title and a turning point and the getaway car and the baddie. Like, you can shape the story without having to author it. Yeah, smart. That's a big nuance that I think a lot of people actually get don't understand. Yeah. [31:44] Yeah. And so again, like this is something that's being created by the writers and artists at DC, but you have sort of a governance participatory element on top of it where you have a say in how it goes. And I think that's one way of integrating voices, more voices into the creative process without completely... [32:07] rolling into UGC. And there will probably be other elements that we explore that are [32:13] There's an incredible number of fantastic artists in the DC NFT community that are creating like bat cowls and covers and like these really, really beautiful artifacts. And to be able to apply that to future projects, I think is something that we'd love to explore with them and with the DC team. [32:34] To your point, not everybody is an artist and they shouldn't need to be to participate in this project. So many ways in and sort of like finding out from the audience, like from the community, what is satisfying in terms of those experiences, whether it's voting, whether it's creating fan art, whether it is.

[32:54] solving challenges or, um, [32:58] kind of like deep lore trivia around Gotham City. I think we're trying to find as many ways possible into these experiences to open them up to new voices too. [33:10] I love how you're thinking about it. I'm learning so much. It's inspiring to hear you talk about all this and how deeply you're thinking about it. I wanted to pull out a quote from a blog post that you wrote saying, NFTs are clearly more than just an asset. What they can provide through features as connective experiences is nearly limitless. [33:40] that represent way more than an investment vehicle. [33:45] But at this point, when you hear NFTs, it's hard to get away from... [33:51] the expectations that people have around financial upsides. So how do you like balance these expectations of like price go up, the real like NFT baggage, so to speak, that people have versus – [34:04] You know, like, how do you move it outside of economic conversations or manage people's or recalibrate people's expectations around that? [34:13] Yeah, I mean, we have, I would say, like, we have collectors and we have investors and speculators, like, probably like everybody else who's building a platform in this space and, yeah.

[34:25] This, to me, is a really interesting question and a really interesting problem to solve because I'm really interested in future innovation. I'm really interested in the future of storytelling and the experiences that we can design that will... [34:43] allow more creators and more communities to thrive in this space. I recognize that [34:49] there are also people who will understand and use NFTs primarily as assets. And that like me, maybe there are some other people who will look at these digital experiences as tools for identity and self-expression and community and story. And so like, [35:08] Maybe this isn't so much about behavior change or baggage or recalibrating the NFT world. Maybe it's just about expanding the bounds of who's inside this world and bringing more people in. The people who use the technology will shape where it goes. And the more people who are part of this world, I think... [35:30] the more future innovation we'll see. Totally. And I think, yeah, you know, that there are certain people that are too far gone and they're so entranced in marketing [35:41] Yeah, I'm not going to be able to convince them otherwise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and, and that what's also interesting to me is some people that are maybe, maybe in the middle that can see it as both and how interesting the kind of mix between storytelling and your kind of power, the ownership and power in that to participate in such an incredible, iconic IP like Batman, but then still having the choice to exit at any point.

[36:11] And how there's like inherently something genuinely new around, I don't want to say maybe upside in participation, but there's a deeper level of connection or upside that you can take from that. [36:26] Yeah, I... [36:28] I think that that, like... [36:30] That to me is the grail. I think like one of the things that I think about [36:34] a lot [36:36] in terms of like some of my prior experiences in this space too, like working with artists at the tour and like a lot of, [36:45] a lot of what this medium promises for creators is and for fans too is this idea of options and not rules and that feels really really powerful um because so much of our [36:57] on-screen experiences constrained and within the balance of a window that feels postage stamp size and within sort of, um, [37:07] that [37:08] the sort of presets of experiences that [37:10] we know and understand and are familiar with in this space. And to be able to open that up and say what if feels [37:17] Real powerful. [37:18] Totally. And, and, you know, you have, you have such a, um, unique and, um, [37:26] very deep understanding of... [37:29] brand. So you write in an essay also on the Palm blog called Brand Identity in the Read, Write, Own Era, which I think has been a theme. It's not just read, write, also own and how that unlocks such incredible power. You write that yesterday's brands were monolithic. Today's are headless. In web two, we created content. In web three, we're creating ourselves. So I wanted

[37:59] particularly applied to Web3 brands, I think it's a very helpful framework for people to understand the difference between Web2 and Web3 brands. [38:06] Sure. And it is a framework and sort of a philosophy that was coined a couple of years ago by Toby Shore and the crew at Other Internet. So it... [38:17] As a practice or as an understanding of the space, I think it's been around for a minute. But I think only and especially as Web3 has exploded over the course of the past year, [38:31] two three years does it feel especially uh applicable the idea that you know brands are not uh [38:41] static, that they'll have to be dynamic, that in many ways they're being shaped by [38:47] their contours are being shaped by the communities that participate in them. And that's exactly what we're talking about when we talk about, when we talk about DC and having creators and fans contribute to Canon. Again, this is not top down. There's not, [39:05] one logo there's not one experience of the dc brand there's many there's an experience that is as [39:12] broad and as rich and as diverse as the spectrum of audiences that we touch. And I think that that sort of, um, [39:22] dissolution of [39:24] monolithic brands is also really... [39:29] tied up right now in many ways with the proliferation of like code as material and generative art. So like when I think it specifically almost just on like a visual basis of something that is a really established brand, I think of the Batman like

[39:48] Batman's face, like his mask. Totally. And to be able to use generative art to filter that through the lens of 80 years of canon and [39:59] the diversity of fan experience, like every mask that we've created as part of that collection, looks completely different and is headless in many ways. Like it reflects a really... [40:11] broad set of identities and not just one. And to me, that's really exciting because again, instead of, um, [40:19] an artifact [40:21] or an icon that [40:23] exists in a singular way, you can create something that has multitudes. I did really want to talk about your writing around generative NFTs, generative technology as applies to NFTs, because I think you have a very unique take here. You write in the Coindesk op-ed in December that you wrote, generativity will shape the fabric of branded content NFTs as projects increasingly reflect back the diverse perspectives of the collector communities that [40:53] artwork that's one of one that you can see yourself in. And I don't think that most people, I certainly haven't really heard generativity, generative art, talked about in the context of branded or community facing NFTs, mostly only, you know, it's art blocks or it's very much in the context of just like fine art, so to speak, or crypto art. But I'd love for you to

[41:23] kind of fan communities, big brands, and this generative NFT piece. [41:30] Yeah, I mean, I think that there's so much pull in the personal. I think that there's something so powerful about seeing people [41:38] yourself reflected back in an artwork or an institution or even a piece of advertising. Um, [41:46] I think just taking a step back, like, [41:49] There's been a lot of debate about the power and sort of like the limits of like code as material, but it's inevitable. Like AI tools have exploded. They've made generative art more accessible than ever. And as text to image proliferates, it becomes easier to understand what it means to collaborate in code. And in many ways, that's because... [42:12] Like, [42:12] it's magic to see yourself in it. And that's why like Lenza exploded on everybody's feeds. Like you saw yourself in a different way. And so I think, [42:22] What we see in generative art or more broadly like algorithmic art, AIR, is this opportunity [42:29] sort of tabling again, the sort of fraud aspect of it for [42:32] unprecedented personalization. Like there is this element in procedural art and, uh, subsequently in like generative art, that's about chance and it's about control. Um, um, [42:45] And I think that creates like this like wonderful opportunity for finding yourself or seeing yourself in a different way or, or even just like straight up serendipity. So I, like, I can't,

[42:54] I can't think of a genre that like better reflects our time. Like it is ethically fraught. It is in flux, like, but it is infinite in a lot of ways and it is speculative in a lot of ways. So there's this culturally relevant, like relevant and resonant piece about, [43:10] that feels really important about generative art right now. But for us and for me and the team, it's become a really important part of our own creative practice and process. And [43:22] extracting that, I can see why it will be more important for brands too. We've built our own generative art engine for NFT collections, but that also... [43:32] That also is something that we use for creating content libraries and creating logo and asset libraries and even creating more. So our engine works with text, too. So being able to sort of like spend more time developing ideas and stories that can be deployed at a much larger scale is incredible. It can change the way we think about logo design or billboards or collections or campaigns. [44:02] the ability to [44:05] not necessarily be stuck and entrenched in making what we know, but instead kind of thinking about the parameters of what we want to understand. [44:12] to accomplish, which allows for a way of creating that feels [44:16] really expansive and in the best and most optimistic way, [44:21] And I, [44:23] I think, compelling use case, again, kind of creating these expansive visual systems that allow for a spectrum of identity to be seen and be played as opposed to

[44:35] one specific singular and monolithic outcome. [44:39] Thank you. [44:40] Totally. I mean, I think the way that you put that, these are new ideas that very few people are talking about publicly or putting into practice in the way that you are. And what it represents to me is, again, when you talk about setting parameters in which then fan communities can come and engage and make it their own. [45:00] You know what I mean? So that's, again, you kind of shaping interactions, but giving fans freedom, choice. It doesn't need to be fan, you know, whatever we want to call the community that's engaging. And not only that, but then expanding as you were talking about just what communication and personalized kind of messages can look like and people can feel seen in ways that they've never been before when those parameters are designed thoughtfully and engaged with thoughtfully. Yeah. [45:27] Yeah. Super. I love that idea. And I know we're coming to an end. I guess the last question, maybe two more short questions would be around, you know, you have talked a lot about listening to your community, listening to fans and listening, taking feedback. I think that you've done that so well in terms of how you've adjusted or added different experiences in. [45:52] when it comes to the DC universe. [45:54] How do you actually listen effectively? I think a lot of brands talk about that they listen to their community and they read a couple of comments and nothing gets action. How do you do that in an effective way?

[46:06] Yeah, I mean, I think that [46:11] I think that listening is hard. I think it's also one of the biggest and most important pieces of what we can do, creating spaces and moderating them with intention so that people feel comfortable sharing. I don't think that there's any degree of shyness from the community about asking for what they want. And then I think for us, it's really about sharing. [46:35] figuring out how to bring that to life in a way that is [46:38] delightful and, uh, [46:41] and also stable and, you know, in accordance with, um, [46:46] the development timelines that we would need for that experience to be really satisfying for people. So, um, [46:53] Being able to create those open channels, but embedding that level of participation into the product itself, like on every level, is really critical. [47:06] Love that. And I guess another question I wanted to ask you is you are the chief creative officer. How do you support and kind of nurture your own creativity and not get burnt out when you're expected to kind of come up with ideas all the time? [47:24] Yeah, that's, that's like another, that's another great question. I think that's such a [47:30] a critical part of my practice and also what I hope to, um,

[47:37] maintain across the team is making sure that there's space to dream, that there's simply space, period. I'm sure you feel how compressed the cycle is working in this space. The timelines are insane. The news cycle works really fast. The hype cycle works really fast. [47:56] you, [47:57] with all these lines open for listening, you're exposed to a lot of feedback all the time. So again, making sure that there is... [48:05] is that type of space is really important. And I think, [48:10] we're really lucky as a studio that we have diversity of projects. So we can sort of look at [48:18] engaging and using different muscles in a different way. Like not every project that we create will be what we've done with Damien Hirst. Not everything that we create will be a comic book drop. Not every collection that we create will be generative. Some of them will be editioned. Every story that we tell will be slightly different. So I think [48:38] being able to [48:40] Right now, we're lucky enough to be in a position where we have a number of productions that can sort of satisfy different types of creative skills and development. I think then there are also components where... [48:55] I think our team challenges us [48:58] us and each other to, um, [49:01] to work on research sprints and to, um, [49:05] identify, you know,

[49:08] different projects that we could take on internally, whether that is building a generative art maker or doing a deep dive on metaverse fashion. So I think that there's [49:20] To me, that sort of... [49:24] making it like almost a 20% commitment, but like that permission to dream is like real important in making sure that the team is, [49:33] is happy and satisfied and kind of like nourished on, on, uh, [49:38] Um, [49:40] on a mental level too. Yeah, because what you're doing isn't, it's mental, but it's also emotional with everything that you're kind of pushing to create. It's heartful, you know, which can, I know, take its toll. You've been incredibly successful with the projects that you've been able to create [49:58] bring to life. What do you think is your single greatest skill that has contributed to the way that you're able to execute at such a high level? [50:11] Whoa. [50:15] Yeah, I mean, I think that like for [50:18] for both [50:19] projects and for the team that [50:22] I work with like, [50:24] the most important thing is creating space. Like I care about championing like new voices in this space. I care about, [50:31] I... [50:33] Ideally, like just giving people a platform to do the work of,

[50:39] their careers or of their lives. Like I think being recessive in that way and being able to elevate people up is, uh, [50:47] really the most important thing for me. Like I think [50:52] I think about all of the change that I want to see, like in tech period, in Web3 specifically, and like that comes from elevating and nurturing new voices. And so whether that is the creators or artists that we work with, or that's [51:04] teams and individual people that we hire and bring on, like that to me is like kind of where change will come from. So creating space for those perspectives and for those talents, uh, [51:14] I think is maybe critical to our studio success and critical to the success of the projects that I feel like I've taken off too. [51:23] Incredible. Love it. Straight, this was such a brilliant conversation. I'm coming away so inspired by it. The way you talk about brands, the way you talk about fan communities, and the possibilities of storytelling and creating new worlds. [51:40] utilizing all the technology that Web3 facilitates. Absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for being on today. [51:48] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.